Discussion:
Beginner question
(too old to reply)
Terry
2010-09-15 02:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi -

I'm playing in a PBEM game of 1870 and have a question about a strategy I'm trying to use to beat down the stock price of several competing RR's.

Basically, the Presidents of these RRs are low on cash so cannot price protect - I'm buying a share and selling it immediately to drive the price down.

Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and does it have a downside?







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Scott Petersen
2010-09-15 02:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and
does it have a downside?
Stock trashing


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Beard, Bruce D.
2010-09-15 02:29:07 UTC
Permalink
2 possible downsides.

1. You may anger your opponents and casue them to retaliate.
2. You will consistently go last on priority. On a turn in which you have the money to start a new RR. and 1 or 2 are much better than the others this could be critical.

-Bruce
________________________________
From: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org [18xx-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Scott Petersen [scott-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:24 PM
To: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [18xx] Beginner question
Post by Terry
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and
does it have a downside?
Stock trashing

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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thomas wall hannaford, jr.
2010-09-15 02:52:16 UTC
Permalink
I agree with Bruce's assessment, to which I'd add:

1. Accept the fact that stock prices will sink to the ledge/bottom of the stock
chart, and plan ahead for your companies to move to/hop up/move onto the next
shelf; do half-dividends if necessary to make sure that once down, you don't get
knocked back any further -UNLESS you want that to happen. In 1870 (but not 1830)
company presidents can 'price-protect' to 'catch' sold shares (and go over 60%
ownership, which in the Chicago Group we absolutely love to do -owning 100% of
your lead company is a worthy goal).

2. If you're always going to be last in the stock round, be prepared to 'stake'
(and be able to defend) companies that you want to own. Sometimes 'staking' a
company can entice another player to sell (good) shares in order to overwhelm
your defense of your 'staked' company, but that's OK because you can get those
(good) shares in lieu of the 'stake'. I've also seen players 'poison the well'
by staking (multiple) companies at low values to minimize other players wanting
to go after them.




________________________________
From: "Beard, Bruce D." <bruce_d_beard-dGIoD64L1/Udnm+***@public.gmane.org>
To: "18xx-***@public.gmane.org" <18xx-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 9:29:07 PM
Subject: RE: [18xx] Beginner question

2 possible downsides.

1. You may anger your opponents and casue them to retaliate.
2. You will consistently go last on priority. On a turn in which you have the
money to start a new RR. and 1 or 2 are much better than the others this could
be critical.

-Bruce
________________________________
From: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org [18xx-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Scott Petersen
[scott-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:24 PM
To: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [18xx] Beginner question



On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Terry
Post by Terry
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and
does it have a downside?
Stock trashing

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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m***@public.gmane.org
2010-09-15 03:03:57 UTC
Permalink
And to answer the question you are probably asking in reference to this post - to "stake" a company is to buy the presidency (at least), thus setting a par price and giving you access to a company in the next stock round, when otherwise all those players taking their turns ahead of you would start all the companies, leaving you with nothing to open.

Staking a high par price makes it difficult for others to take it away from you, though also more attractive because it has a larger treasury to buy trains with.

Staking a low par price makes it easy to take away, but especially late in the game makes it possibly unappealing, as it may not have enough money to buy a train.






-----Original Message-----
From: thomas wall hannaford, jr. <twall1958-/***@public.gmane.org>
To: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Tue, Sep 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Subject: Re: [18xx] Beginner question


I agree with Bruce's assessment, to which I'd add:
1. Accept the fact that stock prices will sink to the ledge/bottom of the stock
hart, and plan ahead for your companies to move to/hop up/move onto the next
helf; do half-dividends if necessary to make sure that once down, you don't get
knocked back any further -UNLESS you want that to happen. In 1870 (but not 1830)
company presidents can 'price-protect' to 'catch' sold shares (and go over 60%
wnership, which in the Chicago Group we absolutely love to do -owning 100% of
our lead company is a worthy goal).
2. If you're always going to be last in the stock round, be prepared to 'stake'
and be able to defend) companies that you want to own. Sometimes 'staking' a
ompany can entice another player to sell (good) shares in order to overwhelm
our defense of your 'staked' company, but that's OK because you can get those
good) shares in lieu of the 'stake'. I've also seen players 'poison the well'
y staking (multiple) companies at low values to minimize other players wanting
o go after them.


_______________________________
rom: "Beard, Bruce D." <bruce_d_beard-dGIoD64L1/Udnm+***@public.gmane.org>
o: "18xx-***@public.gmane.org" <18xx-***@public.gmane.org>
ent: Tue, September 14, 2010 9:29:07 PM
ubject: RE: [18xx] Beginner question
2 possible downsides.
1. You may anger your opponents and casue them to retaliate.
. You will consistently go last on priority. On a turn in which you have the
oney to start a new RR. and 1 or 2 are much better than the others this could
e critical.
-Bruce
_______________________________
rom: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org [18xx-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Scott Petersen
scott-***@public.gmane.org]
ent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:24 PM
o: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org
ubject: Re: [18xx] Beginner question

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Terry
Post by Terry
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and
does it have a downside?

Stock trashing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Justin Rebelo
2010-09-15 05:20:45 UTC
Permalink
Poison the well.. That is a brilliant term I hadn't heard used in XX
before. Love it!

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 7:52 PM, thomas wall hannaford, jr.
Post by thomas wall hannaford, jr.
1. Accept the fact that stock prices will sink to the ledge/bottom of the stock
chart, and plan ahead for your companies to move to/hop up/move onto the next
shelf; do half-dividends if necessary to make sure that once down, you don't get
knocked back any further -UNLESS you want that to happen. In 1870 (but not 1830)
company presidents can 'price-protect' to 'catch' sold shares (and go over 60%
ownership, which in the Chicago Group we absolutely love to do -owning 100% of
your lead company is a worthy goal).
2. If you're always going to be last in the stock round, be prepared to 'stake'
(and be able to defend) companies that you want to own. Sometimes 'staking' a
company can entice another player to sell (good) shares in order to overwhelm
your defense of your 'staked' company, but that's OK because you can get those
(good) shares in lieu of the 'stake'. I've also seen players 'poison the well'
by staking (multiple) companies at low values to minimize other players wanting
to go after them.
________________________________
Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 9:29:07 PM
Subject: RE: [18xx] Beginner question
2 possible downsides.
1. You may anger your opponents and casue them to retaliate.
2. You will consistently go last on priority.  On a turn in which you have the
money to start a new RR. and 1 or 2 are much better than the others this could
be critical.
-Bruce
________________________________
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [18xx] Beginner question
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Terry
Post by Terry
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and
does it have a downside?
Stock trashing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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thomas wall hannaford, jr.
2010-09-15 07:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Glad you like it; Ian Booth demonstrated the technique to me during a Puffing
Billy tournament game one year.

Which is a good reason why you watch/play with the masters of this game series;
you get hammered (sometimes really badly) frequently, but if you pay close
attention to what's going on (and NEVER BE AFRAID to ask questions), you can
learn a lot.......




________________________________
From: Justin Rebelo <justin.rebelo-***@public.gmane.org>
To: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 12:20:45 AM
Subject: Re: [18xx] Beginner question


Poison the well.. That is a brilliant term I hadn't heard used in XX
before. Love it!

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 7:52 PM, thomas wall hannaford, jr.
Post by thomas wall hannaford, jr.
1. Accept the fact that stock prices will sink to the ledge/bottom of the stock
chart, and plan ahead for your companies to move to/hop up/move onto the next
shelf; do half-dividends if necessary to make sure that once down, you don't get
knocked back any further -UNLESS you want that to happen. In 1870 (but not 1830)
company presidents can 'price-protect' to 'catch' sold shares (and go over 60%
ownership, which in the Chicago Group we absolutely love to do -owning 100% of
your lead company is a worthy goal).
2. If you're always going to be last in the stock round, be prepared to 'stake'
(and be able to defend) companies that you want to own. Sometimes 'staking' a
company can entice another player to sell (good) shares in order to overwhelm
your defense of your 'staked' company, but that's OK because you can get those
(good) shares in lieu of the 'stake'. I've also seen players 'poison the well'
by staking (multiple) companies at low values to minimize other players wanting
to go after them.
________________________________
Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 9:29:07 PM
Subject: RE: [18xx] Beginner question
2 possible downsides.
1. You may anger your opponents and casue them to retaliate.
2. You will consistently go last on priority. On a turn in which you have the
money to start a new RR. and 1 or 2 are much better than the others this could
be critical.
-Bruce
________________________________
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [18xx] Beginner question
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Terry
Post by Terry
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and
does it have a downside?
Stock trashing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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David G.D. Hecht
2010-09-15 02:43:41 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry" <tj_laven-/***@public.gmane.org>
To: <18xx-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:22 PM
Subject: [18xx] Beginner question
Post by Terry
Hi -
I'm playing in a PBEM game of 1870 and have a question about a strategy
I'm trying to use to beat down the stock price of several competing RR's.
Basically, the Presidents of these RRs are low on cash so cannot price
protect - I'm buying a share and selling it immediately to drive the price
down.
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and
does it have a downside?
Nothing wrong with it other than it's kinda a "lose-lose" strategy since
inevitably folks will retaliate.

Depending on whether or not you are making a profit I call this
"profit-taking" or "churning". In some circles this is also referred to as
"flash-n-trash".



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Steve Thomas
2010-09-15 09:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
I'm playing in a PBEM game of 1870 and have a question about a strategy
I'm trying to use to beat down the stock price of several competing RR's.
Basically, the Presidents of these RRs are low on cash so cannot price
protect - I'm buying a share and selling it immediately to drive the price
down.
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and
does it have a downside?
There are several downsides. As others have said, it significantly
undervalues the priority. It can cause the affected player to retaliate,
and the rest of the players, who are benefitting from "let's you and him
fight," will be sitting pretty. It can cause the affected player to become
grumpy, and there is little worse than a bitter and twisted 18xx player. It
lengthens the game, partly because of the additional stock round actions,
and partly from the resultant debates over the merits or otherwise of this
course of action.

Good players don't start it unless they can see some substantial benefit
from it, either because they're making useful money off the difference
between par and stock prices, or because they think the running order will
be improved.

--
Steve Thomas ***@b...




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thomas wall hannaford, jr.
2010-09-15 15:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Let's face it, the 18XX game series is stuffed with unhistorical, 'gamey' and
even infantile rules -why they're included is beyond me, but as long as they're
there (and legal to use) they can and should be used (and if people don't like
the rules, then rewrite them!).

1830 was specifically designed to FEATURE 'stock trashing' IMOHO. Games that
limit Presidential ownership to below 100% also encourage 'trashing' (especially
if IPO share prices are fixed at a definite price), but if they include
corporation presidential 'price-protection' and allow 'caught/saved shares' to
be kept (and Presidential ownership up to 100%) this is limited.

In my current 1826 PBeM game I'm experimenting with systematic 'trashing' to
drive all corporations down to the bottom as a means to 'level the playing
field' (there are not going to be any corporations serenely cruising along in
the top row of the stock market chart in this game I assure you), as well as
minimize share value (and increase the importance of dividend payouts); the only
corporations that aren't going to be trashed are those that are sold out
(theoretically this is because they are the best paying/appreciating, but this
always is not the case). Since I REALLY LIKE to buy/run trains my corporations
should be paying well (unless I need to half/hold to buy more trains or pay for
tokens/track-building), and should be/remain sold out.......





________________________________
From: Steve Thomas <maisnestce-***@public.gmane.org>
To: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 4:57:04 AM
Subject: Re: [18xx] Beginner question
Post by Terry
I'm playing in a PBEM game of 1870 and have a question about a strategy
I'm trying to use to beat down the stock price of several competing RR's.
Basically, the Presidents of these RRs are low on cash so cannot price
protect - I'm buying a share and selling it immediately to drive the price
down.
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and
does it have a downside?
There are several downsides. As others have said, it significantly
undervalues the priority. It can cause the affected player to retaliate,
and the rest of the players, who are benefitting from "let's you and him
fight," will be sitting pretty. It can cause the affected player to become
grumpy, and there is little worse than a bitter and twisted 18xx player. It
lengthens the game, partly because of the additional stock round actions,
and partly from the resultant debates over the merits or otherwise of this
course of action.

Good players don't start it unless they can see some substantial benefit
from it, either because they're making useful money off the difference
between par and stock prices, or because they think the running order will
be improved.

--
Steve Thomas ***@b...







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Hanno Girke
2010-09-15 06:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Aside from what others already have mentioned:

Stock dumping is not only a means to screw up the value of your
opponents' shares, but also to mess with the order in which the
companies can buy trains.
Before you do aggressive dumping, check how many companies should buy
trains before your company ot make sure you get the train you really
want.
Nothing is worse than being the one who has to buy the last 4 train.

H
Post by Terry
Hi -
I'm playing in a PBEM game of 1870 and have a question about a
strategy I'm trying to use to beat down the stock price of several
competing RR's.
Basically, the Presidents of these RRs are low on cash so cannot
price protect - I'm buying a share and selling it immediately to
drive the price down.
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair
play, and does it have a downside?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Terry
2010-09-15 11:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for these replies. The first time I did it, the idea was to ensure my RR went before the other in the OR. It seemed to work as I had planned, so I thought of using the "trashing" stratgey against the current game leader's stock prices to simply reduce the value of his portfolio and thus the amount of his commanding lead in the game.

It does strike me as mean spirited, but not anything that a real-life robber baron wouldn't do.
Post by Terry
Hi -
I'm playing in a PBEM game of 1870 and have a question about a strategy I'm trying to use to beat down the stock price of several competing RR's.
Basically, the Presidents of these RRs are low on cash so cannot price protect - I'm buying a share and selling it immediately to drive the price down.
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and does it have a downside?
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pentaclebreaker
2010-09-15 11:52:58 UTC
Permalink
apart from the already poited out effects . . .

a) especcially in 18XX variants where the president can buy certificates out of order or the company can buy stock during the OR, you make these buys cheaper . .

b) you will make NO net-gain with this tactic, moreover you might lose the one or other dollar. . . and unless you are able to stock-trash ALL other players that will result in you being in front of the player whose stock you trashed but behind the one you haven't.

c) in 18XX variants, where one of the ways to end the game is determined by one company reaching a certain stock value you might elongate the game considerably.

d) stock trashing works only as long as a company is NOT on a ledge, and there is only ONE OR, as with two ORs the stock value will almost allways reach a ledge quickly.

selective stock trashing can be used near the end of a game, when it hinders a company to reach maximum share value, as the steps inbetween the uppermost share values tend to be much steeper than at the low and middle field of stock market. e.g. in 1830 the difference between highest and second highest share value is $ 50 per share, so if you can prevent the share from reaching top value your action costs the president some $ 250 to $ 300 - as long as you don't lose money by just dumping a valuable share.

ciao

martin m.
Post by Terry
Thanks for these replies. The first time I did it, the idea was to ensure my RR went before the other in the OR. It seemed to work as I had planned, so I thought of using the "trashing" stratgey against the current game leader's stock prices to simply reduce the value of his portfolio and thus the amount of his commanding lead in the game.
It does strike me as mean spirited, but not anything that a real-life robber baron wouldn't do.
Post by Terry
Hi -
I'm playing in a PBEM game of 1870 and have a question about a strategy I'm trying to use to beat down the stock price of several competing RR's.
Basically, the Presidents of these RRs are low on cash so cannot price protect - I'm buying a share and selling it immediately to drive the price down.
Does this strategy have a name, is it considered poor or unfair play, and does it have a downside?
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