Discussion:
18xx at Strategicon (Gateway 2014)
yuglooc-ihVZJaRskl1bRRN4PJnoQQ@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-03 00:58:49 UTC
Permalink
18xx activity was sparse at this convention, thanks in part to RailCon (as well as several local 18xx players having essentially dropped out of the hobby).

I believe that Todd Van der Pluym won all three games (1830, 1870, 1861). I ran the 18xx teaching session on Friday afternoon. I taught 1830 to four potential new players; two of them decided to play in the subsequent 18xx event.
'Beard, Bruce D' bruce_d_beard-dGIoD64L1/Udnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-03 02:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Todd may have won more 18XX tournaments than anyone in the history of history.

-Bruce

________________________________
From: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org [18xx-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 8:58 PM
To: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [18xx] 18xx at Strategicon (Gateway 2014)



18xx activity was sparse at this convention, thanks in part to RailCon (as well as several local 18xx players having essentially dropped out of the hobby).

I believe that Todd Van der Pluym won all three games (1830, 1870, 1861). I ran the 18xx teaching session on Friday afternoon. I taught 1830 to four potential new players; two of them decided to play in the subsequent 18xx event.





------------------------------------

------------------------------------

This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
jonaflagg-YDxpq3io04c@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-03 10:28:06 UTC
Permalink
I would not consider it to be a tournament. It was Todd, Bill, myself, and whomever we can muster. On another note, there was at least 25 players in the Lords of Waterdeep tournament. This leads to the question as to what we can do to bring new players into 18xx. Once a month, I set up a game at Game Empire in Pasadena on the game day even if I am the "one man band." That is why when I go out of town I look for the shorter and simpler variants that I can teach new players. Unfortunately, when I last attended the 18xx Tournament in Portland there was more interest in the longer more complex variants. I think it is like that because in that area they have an active group that plays every weekend. That is why they look for more challenging games. However these days, it has been very difficult for me to find players outside of Todd and Bill.
Travis Dean travis.dean.l-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-03 14:53:35 UTC
Permalink
I've slowly been introducing the game to players in San Diego. After my
third round of new players using 1861, I think I may start to have
returning players.






--
Thank you,
Travis Dean KJ6HLE
Post by jonaflagg-***@public.gmane.org [18xx]
I would not consider it to be a tournament. It was Todd, Bill, myself,
and whomever we can muster. On another note, there was at least 25 players
in the Lords of Waterdeep tournament. This leads to the question as to
what we can do to bring new players into 18xx. Once a month, I set up a
game at Game Empire in Pasadena on the game day even if I am the "one man
band." That is why when I go out of town I look for the shorter and
simpler variants that I can teach new players. Unfortunately, when I last
attended the 18xx Tournament in Portland there was more interest in the
longer more complex variants. I think it is like that because in that area
they have an active group that plays every weekend. That is why they look
for more challenging games. However these days, it has been very difficult
for me to find players outside of Todd and Bill.
'Lars Myrin' lomyrin-j9pdmedNgrk@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-04 02:33:29 UTC
Permalink
As 18xx players go, there are several players in the Oceanside –Vista- San Marcos area in the North San Diego County.



From: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 7:54 AM
To: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [18xx] Re: 18xx at Strategicon (Gateway 2014)





I've slowly been introducing the game to players in San Diego. After my third round of new players using 1861, I think I may start to have returning players.






--
Thank you,
Travis Dean KJ6HLE



On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 3:28 AM, jonaflagg-***@public.gmane.org <mailto:jonaflagg-***@public.gmane.org> [18xx] <18xx-***@public.gmane.org <mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org> > wrote:



I would not consider it to be a tournament. It was Todd, Bill, myself, and whomever we can muster. On another note, there was at least 25 players in the Lords of Waterdeep tournament. This leads to the question as to what we can do to bring new players into 18xx. Once a month, I set up a game at Game Empire in Pasadena on the game day even if I am the "one man band." That is why when I go out of town I look for the shorter and simpler variants that I can teach new players. Unfortunately, when I last attended the 18xx Tournament in Portland there was more interest in the longer more complex variants. I think it is like that because in that area they have an active group that plays every weekend. That is why they look for more challenging games. However these days, it has been very difficult for me to find players outside of Todd and Bill.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------
Posted by: "Lars Myrin" <lomyrin-***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
Travis Dean travis.dean.l-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-04 17:06:35 UTC
Permalink
I would love to meet the Oceanside-Vista-San Marcos 18xx players. I'm in
Escondido, so that's really close!



--
Thank you,
Travis Dean KJ6HLE
As 18xx players go, there are several players in the Oceanside –Vista- San
Marcos area in the North San Diego County.
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [18xx] Re: 18xx at Strategicon (Gateway 2014)
I've slowly been introducing the game to players in San Diego. After my
third round of new players using 1861, I think I may start to have
returning players.
--
Thank you,
Travis Dean KJ6HLE
I would not consider it to be a tournament. It was Todd, Bill, myself, and
whomever we can muster. On another note, there was at least 25 players in
the Lords of Waterdeep tournament. This leads to the question as to what we
can do to bring new players into 18xx. Once a month, I set up a game at
Game Empire in Pasadena on the game day even if I am the "one man band."
That is why when I go out of town I look for the shorter and simpler
variants that I can teach new players. Unfortunately, when I last attended
the 18xx Tournament in Portland there was more interest in the longer more
complex variants. I think it is like that because in that area they have an
active group that plays every weekend. That is why they look for more
challenging games. However these days, it has been very difficult for me to
find players outside of Todd and Bill.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
'Lars Myrin' lomyrin-j9pdmedNgrk@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-04 17:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Send me an email with your address and I will set up som contacts



Lars



From: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 10:07 AM
To: 18xx
Subject: Re: [18xx] Re: 18xx at Strategicon (Gateway 2014)





I would love to meet the Oceanside-Vista-San Marcos 18xx players. I'm in Escondido, so that's really close!






--
Thank you,
Travis Dean KJ6HLE



On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 7:33 PM, 'Lars Myrin' lomyrin-***@public.gmane.org <mailto:***@cox.net> [18xx] <18xx-***@public.gmane.org <mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org> > wrote:



As 18xx players go, there are several players in the Oceanside –Vista- San Marcos area in the North San Diego County.

From: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org <mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org> [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org> ]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 7:54 AM
To: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org <mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [18xx] Re: 18xx at Strategicon (Gateway 2014)



I've slowly been introducing the game to players in San Diego. After my third round of new players using 1861, I think I may start to have returning players.

--
Thank you,
Travis Dean KJ6HLE

On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 3:28 AM, jonaflagg-***@public.gmane.org <mailto:jonaflagg-***@public.gmane.org> <mailto:jonaflagg-***@public.gmane.org <mailto:jonaflagg-***@public.gmane.org> > [18xx] <***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org> <mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org <mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org> > > wrote:

I would not consider it to be a tournament. It was Todd, Bill, myself, and whomever we can muster. On another note, there was at least 25 players in the Lords of Waterdeep tournament. This leads to the question as to what we can do to bring new players into 18xx. Once a month, I set up a game at Game Empire in Pasadena on the game day even if I am the "one man band." That is why when I go out of town I look for the shorter and simpler variants that I can teach new players. Unfortunately, when I last attended the 18xx Tournament in Portland there was more interest in the longer more complex variants. I think it is like that because in that area they have an active group that plays every weekend. That is why they look for more challenging games. However these days, it has been very difficult for me to find players outside of Todd and Bill.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------
Posted by: "Lars Myrin" <lomyrin-***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
Joe Masinter joe.masinter-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-04 16:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Recruiting new 18xx players isn't easy. The required time investment and
learning curve definitely scares away all but the most dedicated gamers.
Board gaming in general is surely on the rise but most players are pretty
casual. I'm a new player myself, having stumbled through my first clueless
game of 18Neb less than 2 years ago, and I've been trying to get others
hooked ever since, mostly through a games group on meetup.com (SF board
game geeks). To recruit at mostly casual game events, I think the best way
is to post ahead of time and drum up interest, getting an advance
commitment, making sure everyone knows that the first game even of 1889
will probably be 5 hours with new players and rules explanations. I'd say
equal parts evangelism and warning.

On the first play, depending on the group, I think most new players would
appreciate some explicit strategy tips, such as pointing out that you can
manipulate the stock market to affect operating order, and the advantage of
selling privates early. New players mostly just really need to practice a
few things, such as how to calculate routes for a few 2 or 3 trains, how to
quickly pay out 17 a share and make change, etc, before they can really
start to enjoy the game without it getting bogged down by the bookkeeping.
Only then will they keep coming back

Good luck!
Joe Masinter
brett lentz wakko666-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-04 17:44:49 UTC
Permalink
I completely agree, Joe.

This is one of my biggest complaints about how games are taught, especially
more complex games like 18xx. It can be really easy to shift from
explaining how things work to playing someone else's position for them. If
I'm going to play someone else's position for them, then why are they even
sitting there? The fastest way to ensure someone never comes back to the
table is to make it irrelevant that they, the person, are at the table.
That just kills the fun for many people.

Throughout a game with newbies, I like to provide hints and reminders of
the possible decisions available and their impact on the game. I'll go far
enough to say, "buying X share is good for me, but hurts player A" or
"laying this tile helps these other companies in addition to yourself, and
hurts those companies." But, importantly, I let THEM make the decision on
what course of action to take.

---Brett.
Post by Joe Masinter joe.masinter-***@public.gmane.org [18xx]
Recruiting new 18xx players isn't easy. The required time investment and
learning curve definitely scares away all but the most dedicated gamers.
Board gaming in general is surely on the rise but most players are pretty
casual. I'm a new player myself, having stumbled through my first clueless
game of 18Neb less than 2 years ago, and I've been trying to get others
hooked ever since, mostly through a games group on meetup.com (SF board
game geeks). To recruit at mostly casual game events, I think the best way
is to post ahead of time and drum up interest, getting an advance
commitment, making sure everyone knows that the first game even of 1889
will probably be 5 hours with new players and rules explanations. I'd say
equal parts evangelism and warning.
On the first play, depending on the group, I think most new players would
appreciate some explicit strategy tips, such as pointing out that you can
manipulate the stock market to affect operating order, and the advantage of
selling privates early. New players mostly just really need to practice a
few things, such as how to calculate routes for a few 2 or 3 trains, how to
quickly pay out 17 a share and make change, etc, before they can really
start to enjoy the game without it getting bogged down by the bookkeeping.
Only then will they keep coming back
Good luck!
Joe Masinter
'Beard, Bruce D' bruce_d_beard-dGIoD64L1/Udnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-04 18:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Brett,

This can be difficult to escape. Some players become so paralyzed by fear of making a wrong decision that they do not want to do anything without it being suggested by whoever they adopt as mentor. So you get caught between wanting to move the game along and trying to wean them. This is especially difficult in a tournament--where your suggestion can impact the game and standings of others.

-Bruce

________________________________
From: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org [18xx-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:44 PM
To: 18xx-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [18xx] Re: 18xx at Strategicon (Gateway 2014)



I completely agree, Joe.

This is one of my biggest complaints about how games are taught, especially more complex games like 18xx. It can be really easy to shift from explaining how things work to playing someone else's position for them. If I'm going to play someone else's position for them, then why are they even sitting there? The fastest way to ensure someone never comes back to the table is to make it irrelevant that they, the person, are at the table. That just kills the fun for many people.

Throughout a game with newbies, I like to provide hints and reminders of the possible decisions available and their impact on the game. I'll go far enough to say, "buying X share is good for me, but hurts player A" or "laying this tile helps these other companies in addition to yourself, and hurts those companies." But, importantly, I let THEM make the decision on what course of action to take.

---Brett.


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Joe Masinter joe.masinter-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:joe.masinter-***@public.gmane.org> [18xx] <18xx-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:18xx-***@public.gmane.org>> wrote:


Recruiting new 18xx players isn't easy. The required time investment and learning curve definitely scares away all but the most dedicated gamers. Board gaming in general is surely on the rise but most players are pretty casual. I'm a new player myself, having stumbled through my first clueless game of 18Neb less than 2 years ago, and I've been trying to get others hooked ever since, mostly through a games group on meetup.com<http://meetup.com> (SF board game geeks). To recruit at mostly casual game events, I think the best way is to post ahead of time and drum up interest, getting an advance commitment, making sure everyone knows that the first game even of 1889 will probably be 5 hours with new players and rules explanations. I'd say equal parts evangelism and warning.

On the first play, depending on the group, I think most new players would appreciate some explicit strategy tips, such as pointing out that you can manipulate the stock market to affect operating order, and the advantage of selling privates early. New players mostly just really need to practice a few things, such as how to calculate routes for a few 2 or 3 trains, how to quickly pay out 17 a share and make change, etc, before they can really start to enjoy the game without it getting bogged down by the bookkeeping. Only then will they keep coming back

Good luck!
Joe Masinter










------------------------------------

------------------------------------

This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
brett lentz wakko666-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-04 19:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Bruce -

I agree in part. I will say that a tournament isn't really an ideal venue
for learning 18xx. I'd absolutely recommend the prospective player
participate in a non-tournament game first.

But for a non-tournament game, I think that experienced players are
consistently too impatient with newbies, which is what sends the message
that new players are not welcome. Bringing new players to the game requires
playing in a way that facilitates learning and focuses on the new player
having fun above all else.

Speed shouldn't be a priority for a learning game, the newbie having fun
needs to be the priority.

---Brett.
Post by 'Beard, Bruce D' bruce_d_beard-dGIoD64L1/Udnm+***@public.gmane.org [18xx]
Brett,
This can be difficult to escape. Some players become so paralyzed by fear
of making a wrong decision that they do not want to do anything without it
being suggested by whoever they adopt as mentor. So you get caught between
wanting to move the game along and trying to wean them. This is especially
difficult in a tournament--where your suggestion can impact the game and
standings of others.
-Bruce
________________________________
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [18xx] Re: 18xx at Strategicon (Gateway 2014)
I completely agree, Joe.
This is one of my biggest complaints about how games are taught,
especially more complex games like 18xx. It can be really easy to shift
from explaining how things work to playing someone else's position for
them. If I'm going to play someone else's position for them, then why are
they even sitting there? The fastest way to ensure someone never comes back
to the table is to make it irrelevant that they, the person, are at the
table. That just kills the fun for many people.
Throughout a game with newbies, I like to provide hints and reminders of
the possible decisions available and their impact on the game. I'll go far
enough to say, "buying X share is good for me, but hurts player A" or
"laying this tile helps these other companies in addition to yourself, and
hurts those companies." But, importantly, I let THEM make the decision on
what course of action to take.
---Brett.
Recruiting new 18xx players isn't easy. The required time investment and
learning curve definitely scares away all but the most dedicated gamers.
Board gaming in general is surely on the rise but most players are pretty
casual. I'm a new player myself, having stumbled through my first clueless
game of 18Neb less than 2 years ago, and I've been trying to get others
hooked ever since, mostly through a games group on meetup.com<
http://meetup.com> (SF board game geeks). To recruit at mostly casual
game events, I think the best way is to post ahead of time and drum up
interest, getting an advance commitment, making sure everyone knows that
the first game even of 1889 will probably be 5 hours with new players and
rules explanations. I'd say equal parts evangelism and warning.
On the first play, depending on the group, I think most new players would
appreciate some explicit strategy tips, such as pointing out that you can
manipulate the stock market to affect operating order, and the advantage of
selling privates early. New players mostly just really need to practice a
few things, such as how to calculate routes for a few 2 or 3 trains, how to
quickly pay out 17 a share and make change, etc, before they can really
start to enjoy the game without it getting bogged down by the bookkeeping.
Only then will they keep coming back
Good luck!
Joe Masinter
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
John David Galt jdg-B7nRaJsaZ71lfy4lhgBH/6/hnoOF5EnK9T/cS7aRwQ8@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-05 00:29:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by brett lentz wakko666-***@public.gmane.org [18xx]
I completely agree, Joe.
This is one of my biggest complaints about how games are taught,
especially more complex games like 18xx. It can be really easy to shift
from explaining how things work to playing someone else's position for
them. If I'm going to play someone else's position for them, then why
are they even sitting there? The fastest way to ensure someone never
comes back to the table is to make it irrelevant that they, the person,
are at the table. That just kills the fun for many people.
I agree too. This is why, if I want to teach 18xx to a newby, I pull out
a reasonably short and simple game, like 18AL. Second best are the most
common games like 1830, but 1830 with newbies can easily run 10 hours if
you don't hurry them so much that they don't enjoy playing.

Playing someone else's position for them can not only spoil a game for
the newby but also for everyone else, both because it tends to double the
playing time (so you don't finish) and because the committee-played
position becomes unbeatably strong.



------------------------------------
Posted by: John David Galt <jdg-B7nRaJsaZ71lfy4lhgBH/6/hnoOF5EnK9T/***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
Eric Flood etothepi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [18xx]
2014-09-05 00:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Two thoughts:

1.) Tournament play is certainly not ideal for new players, but new players
frequently only allocate convention time for such
"adventurous/lengthy/complicated" games, which frequently overlaps with the
only available 18xx event at a convention being a tournament (or
18C2C/18OE...). Very similar patterns can be found with games like Twilight
Imperium, Diplomacy, or any other similarly rules-heavy and time-consuming
games. So long as that continues to be the case, the "problem" will
continue to exist. Even worse, those players rarely repeat as these events
occur completely out of their normal context and they frequently do not
follow up on ways of continuing with local groups, so the effort of
teaching is completely wasted. As a result, I rarely allow myself to be in
games with new players in such circumstances, and prefer to establish
relatively frequent local sessions which I announce in certain public
sectors (currently Joe's SF Board Game Geeks meetup is my preferred method).

2.) Playing a game like 18AL does new players a complete disservice. 18AL
is so gentle as to not provide any real threat or challenge, instead being
an almost pure snowball game - leaving new players wondering why anyone
would play 18xx over a typical 60-90 minute Eurogame. I've had extremely
low success with that one. My preferred intro titles are 1889 (can't kill
yourself on the privates, very rough edge of the 6T breaking or not [and
the paranoia it can cause], very simple track/routes/revenue calculations,
and some real station screwage possible), 18Neb (privates extremely gentle
auction although overly long, only towns at the beginning of the game which
grow into cities, total station screwage possibilities in the midgame,
route-building to get the E-W bonus, and a not-too-gentle train rush), and
probably 1879 will be a new one I'll try soon (no privates, brutal train
rush, difficult track decisions, bankruptcy seems extremely likely).

-Eric





On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 5:29 PM, John David Galt
Post by brett lentz wakko666-***@public.gmane.org [18xx]
I completely agree, Joe.
This is one of my biggest complaints about how games are taught,
especially more complex games like 18xx. It can be really easy to shift
from explaining how things work to playing someone else's position for
them. If I'm going to play someone else's position for them, then why
are they even sitting there? The fastest way to ensure someone never
comes back to the table is to make it irrelevant that they, the person,
are at the table. That just kills the fun for many people.
I agree too. This is why, if I want to teach 18xx to a newby, I pull out
a reasonably short and simple game, like 18AL. Second best are the most
common games like 1830, but 1830 with newbies can easily run 10 hours if
you don't hurry them so much that they don't enjoy playing.
Playing someone else's position for them can not only spoil a game for
the newby but also for everyone else, both because it tends to double the
playing time (so you don't finish) and because the committee-played
position becomes unbeatably strong.
Loading...